#2516 - Rowan Jacobsen

“So what is the issue? Well, let's go back to the beginning. So you had this idea that sun exposure is probably giving people cancer, and sunscreen is good. You need to wear sunscreen. Stay out of the sun. So when you started going into the research, what made you shift your opinion?”

“And, you know, his message was wear sunscreen. Yeah. Happened to me. Well, so, I mean, yeah. So I don't want to downplay skin cancer because it sucks when you get it. You know, they have to cut. They have to cut off a hunk of your ear or something that definitely sucks, even if it's not life threatening.”

“Now, I use a natural sunscreen when I use it at all. It's the stuff that's like beef tallow based and has zinc in it. It's very white and obvious. The spray stuff goes on clear. You can't even tell you have it on, but it's very effective. But I'm always like super hesitant. I'm like, what's in that stuff that we're going to find out 15, 20 years from now?”

“and Australia for decades. And the sunscreen companies have been asking to use them and haven't been allowed to, but now they're finally going to get to use one of the main ones. And what are these ingredients? So it's called BPA.”

“They would have to test it on animals. They didn't want to get the blowback on that. There are a bunch of reasons that they weren't willing to do it. Also, I think they're a little scared what they might find. So anyway, so our sunscreens have not been nearly as good as what's used elsewhere, both in terms of performance and maybe safety suspicions.”

“So that's going to change by the end of this year. It's going to get better. Well, that's good. Are there... With the traditional sunscreen ingredients that we used to use, is there any negative health consequences of using them that they've shown? Is there any diseases that occur more readily or more frequently?”

“This was one of the things that climate change people used to say. The climate change was destroying the coral reefs. And then it turns out, actually, it's all these people that have sunscreen all over their body and they jump in the ocean and they're essentially poisoning the reef. Yeah. I mean, it's all of the above. I'm pretty sure.”

“Yeah. Well, Hawaii banned use of those sunscreen. A bunch of places banned that style of sunscreen. But they don't really check your bags though.”

“course, now some people are. Right. So it's not great for you, but it's not the worst. Yeah. There's been a bunch of studies that just looked at lifespan and sunscreen doesn't seem to have any impact whatsoever, positive or negative on lifespan. So it just might have some sort of an impact on hormonal function?”

“It started, I wrote an article for Outside back in like 2018. And I titled it, Is Sunscreen the New Margarine? Right? Ooh. So right there. That's Barclays. I was pushing buttons. Yeah. I probably, you know, in retrospect, I don't push as many buttons today.”

“like these horrible lesions on people's faces and stuff. And it's just this warning to wear sunscreen, protect yourself. They're right. Like, that's the textbook case where you've got a horrible mismatch between the population and the place. Like, super, super high levels of sun.”

“Yeah. They're the ones who need to be really careful. So for those people, sunscreen is recommended. Yeah. Or just cover up even, I think, better,? How many other people are working on this stuff? And is everybody sort of in agreement with the data, the people that are examining it?”

“They're never seeing the sun, and they all start getting rickets. Late 1800s. Is nutrition a factor in that? Vitamin D. It was all vitamin D. At first, they thought maybe it was vitamin A. But it turned out... That was how vitamin D was discovered, was some doctors figured out that it could solve rickets in kids.”

“So they started recommending vitamin D pills, which I think are still, like, the number one supplement in the world. I take it. So then they did all these clinical trials to prove that it would help. Huge, huge clinical trials. Tens of thousands of people. Follow-ups that... Went for many years. None of them showed a benefit.”

“Yeah, that could be. Like, yeah, I'd be curious. Yeah, I think vitamin D by itself, the body has a problem absorbing it. It's like, there's a lot of things like that. Like, zinc is like that. You need an ionophore to absorb zinc. So you take it with quercetin.”

“But D from the sun has always been known as the best way to get it. For sure. The best way to get vitamin D, the most effective, the healthiest way, is through sun exposure. Yeah. So here it is. That's how the design's supposed to work. Perplexity says vitamin D helps your body absorb calcium, build strong bones and teeth, support muscles and nerves, plays a key role in immune function.”

“Calcium for bone health. So please put in what are the benefits of vitamin D taken with K2 and magnesium. See if it says that. Because this is what my doctor, who is a vitamin specialist, recommends.”

“Potential benefits of the combo. Better bone support, heart and artery protection, more efficient vitamin D use. Okay. Okay. So the doctor. Is correct.”

“But sun exposure. Let's put that in. Does vitamin D taken on its own have any health benefits? Let's see what it says to that. Because I'd never heard that, that D on its own was not effective at all.”

“it didn't seem to have any of these benefits that they were seeing in people who naturally had high rates through sun exposure. It says, yes, vitamin D on its own has several well-proven health benefits, especially for bones, muscles, and immunity.”

“Wait a minute. People who had high levels through sun exposure. Yeah. Because your natural level of vitamin D is sort of a direct meter of how much sun exposure. Right. But this is natural level. You're not talking about supplementation. Right, right. Okay. So that was why people who had high levels of D without supplementation have lower rates of all, like every disease you can think of.”

“One of the things a friend of mine who's a doctor said that he... When he was working in New York City in the wintertime, he would find people with undetectable levels of vitamin D. Yeah. And he said it was a particular problem with people with darker skin. Because if you have darker skin, you're gonna get less vitamin D from the sun for whatever exposure you do get.”

“Yeah. That's a really bad formula. Like, yeah. If you have dark skin, you need five to ten times as much sunlight to make the same amount of vitamin D. Oh. So, you're really... If you have really dark skin, you're kind of designed for a very bright, you know, tropical environment where you're...”

“the damage that you could get if you get burnt. Turns out you're right. Yeah. It just doesn't make sense that your body produces vitamin D through it. It makes you feel so good. And yet somehow or another is bad. I think it's like many things, very nuanced. And so I'm really happy that you did so much work on it.”

“Yeah. I've read both. I've read It's Bad For You, and I dismissed it because I'm biased. And I love coffee. And I just, it just tastes too good.”

“And it's particularly because of caffeine or coffee itself? The coffee bean? You know, I mean, caffeine. I think it's caffeine. But I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if there's other stuff in coffee that's contributing. Because, you know, like, tea doesn't seem to quite, like, deliver the goods like coffee does.”

“That's all I need to hear. I'm in. I just love coffee. I'm not giving it up. But I've heard many people say that. Michael Pollan had a really interesting anecdote. He laid off coffee for, I think, three or four months as an experiment.”

“there. That's what he found. Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, this is a problem with hot coffee. When you're drinking it out of a paper cup. Very similar. Yeah. Yeah. People don't realize the paper cup is not capable of keeping that liquid.”

“And the reason why it doesn't turn to mush is because there's essentially a condom around the inside of the coffee cup. And Paul Saladino broke a coffee cup down to show what it looks like on the inside. And you're like, oh no, you're pouring hot liquid into plastic, which you're never supposed to do.”

“I got rid of mine. That's why we use French press at the studio. And I use that at home too. And I have one of those little Aero presses to make an individual cup of coffee. It's like the plastic is a real problem and heating it is terrible. We know that about water bottles. Like you're never supposed to drink out of a water bottle that you leave in the hot sun in your car.”

“And I said, no, why? And he goes, you have very low cholesterol. Interesting. It's weird. And I go, dude, if you saw my diet, my diet's like mostly meat and eggs and bacon. That's like a giant percentage of my diet. I thought that was really interesting.”

“It's not a good substitute. But also that all these healthy fats that you're getting from, you know, milk, that you're getting from eggs, eggs in particular. We've been told eggs are bad for you, the cholesterol in eggs. Eggs, you could live off just eggs. Yeah, probably the perfect food. Yeah. Like eggs are fantastic.”

“It's like I have 16 chickens now and I get eggs every day. And these chickens are pets. Like I go, hey, ladies. You know, I feed them. I throw the worms down. They're not afraid of me. They listen to me.”

“But you are sacrificing your health by not eating. You don't want to eat pasture-raised eggs. Just get the real ones. Not the bullshit ones, the real ones. Unfortunately, they're tricking people now. Some companies have been exposed for feeding their chickens turmeric.”

“They feed them curcumin and turmeric because it makes their eggs a darker, more attractive yolk. I know, right? It's so screwy. So bizarrely backwards.”

“So it's... You know what I mean? So it's like, yeah, you're getting these darker eggs because people like that and the darker eggs come from turmeric, but still, you're getting turmeric then, aren't you? Isn't that how it works? I mean, that's fine. But I think the chicken, I think like it's the bugs that sometimes help turn them orange.”

“I think, you know, there's like some chi factor there where the reason people get so excited and feel so good when they eat oysters, it's not because of like the nutrients. It's like there's something else that's in there, you know? Well, isn't there zinc in oysters? There's definitely zinc.”

“for vegans to eat shellfish. And he said, like, if you're eating clams and oysters, they're so primitive. They're more primitive than plants. He said there's more evidence that plants are conscious than there is that these shellfish are conscious.”

“Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, plants are pretty damn smart. So. Yeah. Weirdly so. Yeah. And mussels and clams and oysters, they're not. They're sort of alive, but they don't feel pain. Yeah. And they just move.”

“And they just move. And because they move, they open and close, we've decided that they're animals. And with oysters, that's literally the only thing they can do. Yeah. Clams at least can, you know, dig down. They get the tongue and, yeah. Oysters, they're stuck. They just open and close. There's not a whole lot going on there for sure.”

“Yeah. I've heard of people dying. Yeah. Yeah. They kill a few people every year. You know, it's interesting. My wife got food poisoning from oysters once when we were on vacation. We were in Hawaii and she ate oysters and somehow or another she got it and I didn't. But then my daughter, who didn't eat oysters, also got the food poisoning because food poisoning”

“Hmm. Fucking weird. Yeah. Yeah. But I do love oysters, but I do get nervous. I get nervous when I eat them. Because every now and then you hear like, Houston man dies from food poisoning from oysters. Cold water. Cold water is your friend.”

“sent me to the Amazon on this like crazy hunt to like with this German guy. It was basically Apocalypse Now with chocolate. This German guy was going upriver into the Amazon to try to find this wild cacao like to work with some of the indigenous groups to harvest wild cacao and make like the world's first wild chocolate So I went with him crazy crazy”

“What is the benefits of cacao, like health wise? It's right there with coffee. You know, tons of polyphenols, little bit of caffeine. It seems to, you know, be anti-inflammatory. Gives you a little boost.”

“A lot more like aromatics and less bitterness. Like basically what happened with cacao is when it became a global product, the Europeans selected varieties that were high yielding.”

“And then you have one of those bullshit McDonald's tomatoes that looks like a piece of paper. Yeah. Is that cacao? That's what it looks like? Yeah. So it's these pods and you open up the pod. It's kind of like the size of like a little Nerf football or something. Oh, wow. Yeah.”

“I mean, you know, same thing that can come out of ritual where do anything else. Like you're focusing, you know, and some mindfulness. You get a little, you know, you get a little boost from the cacao, but- Not much. Yeah. It's more about the ritual. Or- What? Why is cacao, what is a cacao ceremony?”

“No benefit in terms of your immune response? No benefit for any condition. Now, did they take vitamin D along with vitamin K2 and with magnesium? Because that's what's recommended. So I don't... I mean, there were a bunch of different... Apparently vitamin D by itself is not effective.”

“See what it says, like, what are the benefits of vitamin D and what should it be taken with? Because I think magnesium and K2 are the big ones. And that together, they have a sort of a synergistic effect. Yeah, that could be. Like, yeah, I'd be curious. Yeah, I think vitamin D by itself, the body has a problem absorbing it.”

“Benefits when taken with K2 and magnesium. Okay. Taking vitamin D together with vitamin K2 and magnesium can make each of them work more effectively, especially for bones and heart, as long as the doses are appropriate for you.”

“Okay. Okay. So the doctor. Is correct. So maybe that's the problem, is that these people were taking it with low magnesium, low calcium, didn't have K2. Yeah. I'd be curious if there was an effect on disease incidence for that combination.”

“God, that seems incorrect, though. Because if you're taking it with magnesium and K2, it seems that they do work synergistically, and there seems to be proven health benefits. One of the problems, I think, is like, I think people generally want to avoid recommending supplementation for some reason.”

“Put that in. Does melatonan, how does it say it? How do you say it? Melanotan. Melanotan? Does melanotan have an effect on hair color? Put that into perplexity. See what they say. Yeah. Yeah. What does it say?”

“Well, mine would be gray if I had hair. It's all gray on my beard now. It's gray on my hair. I'm going to try it. I want to try some melotinan and see if I get dangerous boners. Melanotan does not have good human evidence of changing scalp or body hair color.”

“Does it say anything about... It's coming up right now. Why melanotan causes boners? Okay, it can increase libido and trigger erections in some men, but it's not approved for... Well, I know it's not approved.”

“But yeah, I sort of fell in love with cacao on that trip. But it was – like we landed – we took a small plane and we were going to land on this river and meet a canoe that was going to take us upriver.”

“But we did get some really good chocolate at the end of it. So what is the benefit of wild cacao? It tastes really, really good.”

“They're like the main importer of specialty chocolate. There they are. Is that the people? Yeah. So Caputo's has most of the like the great wild cacaos available on their website. It's just like retail. Caputo's. So is it Caputo's.com?”

“for vegans to eat shellfish. And he said, like, if you're eating clams and oysters, they're so primitive. They're more primitive than plants. He said there's more evidence that plants are conscious than there is that these shellfish are conscious.”

“Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, plants are pretty damn smart. So. Yeah. Weirdly so. Yeah. And mussels and clams and oysters, they're not. They're sort of alive, but they don't feel pain. Yeah. And they just move.”

“Wow. Yeah. Not just stopped it, but reversed it. Like, I don't need reading glasses anymore. I've been using a red light bed for about two years now. And from the time I started using it, within about a month, I started seeing benefits. And so Gary Brekker was on the podcast and he explained it to me.”

“Yep. Naked. Just lie down in there. And I keep my eyes open. And, you know, I went to a tanning bed once, not a tanning bed, a red light bed once at a health clinic. And they were like, got to wear these goggles and make sure you close your eyes before the light goes on. I was like, okay. I did all that.”

“You're not sleeping as well. You don't sleep as well. You don't get the same deep sleep. I can tell. Yeah. Just one glass of wine can fuck you up a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And that – for me, that hit in middle age. Like before that, it wasn't a problem. But now, yeah, like two drinks – two does seem to be the cutoff where life functions normally still.”

“Somehow. But I wonder if it's the timing of when you're drinking. So I wonder if you have like a glass of wine at dinner at like 6 o'clock but you don't go to bed till midnight. I wonder if then your body has a chance to process it and then you're OK. Well, the Italian style, right?”

“and a bunch of stuff like that. And so some people started using antibacterial soap. And the problem with that is it just nukes all the good flora of your skin. Right. Yeah. So then there's a company called Defense Soap.”

“I have heard that with polyphenols. I've heard that, and this is, I think, controversial as well, but it's cigarettes taken along with olive oil. And that a lot of these people have high olive oil-rich diets and that cigarettes along with olive oil, that the olive oil tends to balance out whatever damage that the cigarettes are doing.”

“They feed them curcumin and turmeric because it makes their eggs a darker, more attractive yolk. I know, right?”

“And the problem with that is it just nukes all the good flora of your skin. Right. Yeah. So then there's a company called Defense Soap. And they developed a soap specifically for grapplers. And this soap has tea tree oil and eucalyptus. And it's very healthy for the skin. So it promotes healthy gut flora, but it does kill all the cooties.”

“So in that case, the dye is maybe a little more suspect. Yeah, well, the dye is very suspect because it's like, you know, these farm-raised salmon, they have pale skin because they're eating bullshit. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Are there any other things that you've stumbled across that turned out to be good for you that people were averse to?”

“just plastic everywhere. I got rid of mine. That's why we use French press at the studio. And I use that at home too. And I have one of those little Aero presses to make an individual cup of coffee. It's like the plastic is a real problem and heating it is terrible.”

“All right, but see if you can find articles on the dangers of using hand sanitizer, because this is what I had read”

“Well, I mean, the example of tomatoes is a perfect example because heirloom tomatoes are sensational. They're so delicious. So much better. They're so much better. And then you have one of those bullshit McDonald's tomatoes that looks like a piece of paper.”

“But thank you very much. And tell everybody where your book is. And how they can get it. Yeah. So whatever their favorite online place, In Defense of Sunlight, Amazon, anywhere else. And did you do an audio version of it? Yeah. They let me read it. Yes. We'll see if that was good news or not. Nice. I love it when someone reads their own book. It's very important, I think. Me too. Yeah. All right.”

“Like you have to seek it out. You have to go to like certain restaurants that only use like wheat. There's like Italian flour. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, you look at those Mediterranean cultures and it just works for them.”

“Yeah. You got out there like, ah, put baby oil on. We fried. Totally. Totally. I was just looking at some of those Johnson baby oil ads from, like, the 60s and 70s. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. It was basically cooking lube. Totally. Yeah. It just helped helped you cook better.”

“It's not a good substitute. But also that all these healthy fats that you're getting from milk, that you're getting from eggs, eggs in particular. We've been told eggs are bad for you, the cholesterol and eggs. Eggs, you could live off just eggs.”

“Oh, that's crazy. Wow. So sunscreen. Now, I use a natural sunscreen when I use it at all. It's the stuff that's like beef tallow based and has zinc in it. It's very white and obvious. The spray stuff goes on clear.”

“stuck them in a... They actually thought it was dietary. He stuck them inside in this little warehouse and fed them oatmeal, which is what everyone in Scotland ate at the time. And the dogs got rickets. And he thought it was the oatmeal. He's like, okay, so something about diet.”

“Well in the Jiu-Jitsu world, in the early 2000's, people really started getting into, probiotics, they really started getting into acidophilus, yoghurt, kimchi, fermented vegetables just to prevent skin issues”

“In theory, you could use an old school quartz tanning lamp. Okay, so you could tan with it. He's in a weird Reddit there, so we've got to stop looking. Why? I mean, this is not for the show, but he's in a weird.”

“Like, zinc is like that. You need an ionophore to absorb zinc. So you take it with quercetin. Yeah. Well, one thing, D, you know, the way it naturally comes into... Through the skin, and it comes in with a whole bunch of related compounds. Right. And so, yeah, I do think there's sort of a synergistic effect when it's combined with the right things.”

“of sauna use. I use a sauna every day. And I'm pretty religious about it. So my body is really acclimated to heat. So it doesn't really bother me that much. I just bring a big jug, a 64-ounce jug of water with ice and electrolytes.”

“You know, I mean, caffeine. I think it's caffeine. But I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if there's other stuff in coffee that's contributing. Because, you know, like, tea doesn't seem to quite, like, deliver the goods like coffee does. No. But caffeine is actually, the plants are making it to kill bugs.”

“It's so screwy. So bizarrely backwards. It is. Isn't turmeric good for you? And wouldn't turmeric that you're getting from those eggs also be good for you? It's like... Yeah, it can't hurt. I mean... Right? So it's not like they're getting them food dye. So it's... You know what I mean?”

“I just bring a big jug, a 64-ounce jug of water with ice and electrolytes.”

“It's like the plastic is a real problem, and heating it is terrible. We know that about water bottles. Like, you're never supposed to drink out of a water bottle that you leave in the hot sun in your car. So now picture that bottle of sunscreen that's sitting in your car, cooking and leaching into the material.”

“It's like, there's a lot of things like that. Like, zinc is like that. You need an ionophore to absorb zinc. So you take it with quercetin. Yeah. Well, one thing, D, you know, the way it naturally comes into... Through the skin, and it comes in with a whole bunch of related compounds.”