8 days ago
“inside of your gut will use that food. Let's begin with Dairy. Dariush explains why butter, cheese, and cream can all affect LDL cholesterol differently and how the membrane surrounding the droplets of milk fat may help account for some of those differences.”
“membrane around the fat so that it can dissolve in water. It's called milk-fat globule membrane. And we started studying these when we scientists were understanding why breastfeeding was so good.”
“a mammal that's trying to feed its young. And there's been really great studies showing that these milk-fat globule membranes interact with the gut microbiome in a positive way. They actually bind cholesterol and reduce cholesterol absorption in a positive way. They lower LDL cholesterol.”
“whereas butter doesn't. In butter, you throw it away in buttermilk. That's what buttermilk is. You're throwing away this milk-fat globule membrane. So there's all these complexities. There's the multiple effects of saturated fat on factors beyond LDL cholesterol. There are the types of saturated fat, which vary between, let's say, red meat and coconut oil and dairy.”
“showing benefits of giving MCT oils. And then in terms of the milk, fat, globule, membrane, so this is naturally present so that the fat and water don't mix, right? Fat is hydrophilic, water is, I'm mixing it up, fat is hydrophobic, water is hydrophilic, they don't mix.”
“And so you have to have this kind of membrane in milk to have the fat mix with the water. And that's why if you take, that's what homogenization does, actually. Homogenization breaks up that membrane.”
“There's no problem with that, actually. The membrane is still there, but it's been broken up. So homogenization isn't negative, but that's why you homogenize milk. In butter, to be able to make it and pack it into cubes, you have to get rid of this membrane because it'll interfere with sort of the creation of butter.”
“And even butter is not that bad, which we can get into. But among the dairy foods, butter is probably the worst. And then cheese and cream and yogurt and milk still contain it. And so, there's a wonderful randomized trial done in Europe by a colleague of mine, Ulf Rizarus, who had sort of seen”
“So, when you're talking about this milk-fat-globule protein, is that part of the food? Membrane, membrane, not protein. Yes, membrane, fat, milk-fat, globule membrane. Is that part of the food matrix?”
“I'm thinking about my parents when you saying, you know, low-fat, non-fat milk, non-fat yogurt isn't necessarily better than eating full fat. And to them, I mean, it's in their brains. I mean, like, it's like they can't go to the store and not buy non-fat.”
“So I put kind of yogurt at the top and then maybe cheese and other fermented foods. And I think milk actually has anti-hypertensive peptides linked to lower risk of stroke. So milk is pretty reasonable. Full-fat milk? Any fat. Any fat milk? Oh, they all have the peptides?”
“like the milk-fat globule membrane in the milk and the cholesterol in the milk. But again, this is now cross-foods. And my father, who's passed now, was an endocrinologist who did a lot of great research and was a clinician as well.”
“It's also a fermented food. People forget cheese is fermented and maybe because of that. And then milk seems to have particular benefits for blood pressure and stroke. And it doesn't seem to matter whether it's whole fat or low fat. And so what I recommend to people is probably the most important thing is to make sure you're having yogurt and cheese.”
“milk. It tastes better. I'm a little bit lactose intolerant. I'm fine with cheese. I'm fine with yogurt. But if I have like a half cup of milk, I'm going to kind of notice it. So I use oat milk. You know, that's fine.”
“the case of omega-3s, milligram quantities, could alter your health and your outcomes. Pretty dramatic, actually, kind of amazing. One or two calories of trans fat or one or two calories of omega-3s could influence your risk.”
“So I kind of viewed them as the yin and the yang of dietary fats. And for a while, I was sort of grouped in what we call the omega-3 mafia. Like I was like, you know, all my studies were on omega-3s and the benefits. So among the unsaturated fats, the omega-3, polyunsaturated fats have by far the strongest evidence for health benefits, particularly the longer chain ones that come from seafood”
“Some of them have not. But overall, the evidence is pretty clear. If you put together mechanistic studies, risk factor studies, clinical trials, observational studies, omega-3s are good for you, particularly seafood-based omega-3s. Then there's the omega-6 fatty acids, polyunsaturated fatty acids, and those come in really a range of nuts and seeds.”
“Like omega-3s, they're essential. The body doesn't make them. So if you don't consume them, you actually get sick. And here's where there's, I think, you know, been a lot of confusion that omega-6s are harmful in humans and omega-6s compete”
“So overall, omega-6s are also good for you. And so this idea of the ratio, the ratio really matters because we're all so deficient in omega-3s. We need more omega-3s. If we improve our ratio by eating omega-3s, we will all be healthier, full stop.”
“Seed oils are really good for us as well and really healthy. And so omega-3s and omega-6s are really good for us. We need more of them. And then monounsaturated fats are interesting because compared to omega-3s and omega-6s, they're fairly inert. There's really one major type, oleic acid.”
“I have so many questions. So first of all, I completely agree with not getting enough omega-3, that being the big culprit here, especially when it comes to people thinking about this inflammatory ratio and omega-6 and omega-3.”
“Yeah, like 90% of Americans aren't getting enough omega-3 from seafood. I'm wondering now if you were an author on that Harvard study many years ago that basically identified not getting enough omega-3 from seafood was one of the top six preventable causes of death.”
“I almost, you were talking about yin and yang. I'd have to look, but I'm pretty sure that was our study. I think it might have been. Yeah, because I think about it also, the yin and yang, you know, thinking about like how omega-3 fatty acids being incorporated in cell membrane is very important for the fluidity that's important for the endothelial cells lining your cardiovascular, you know,”
“Think of them as biologic information. Omega-3s, when they get into the cardiac membrane, you mentioned this already, fascinating. They actually help support the ion channels where the electrical conduction through the heart is happening.”
“flat line. That's the electrical disturbance of the heart. Omega-3s stabilize that and prevent that in the setting of ischemia or acute heart attacks by stabilizing the membrane. Trans fats, in contrast, as you've mentioned, alter and negatively alter the membrane.”
“So imagine every photon of light hitting you, a rhodopsin receptor has to be recycled. If you put omega-3s in the retinal membrane, the cycling happens faster, smoother, easier. And in infants, if you give DHA during pregnancy or during breastfeeding, infants have better visual acuity.”
“EGCG in green tea has been shown to activate thermogenesis. So all of the same things. Omega-3s. Omega-3s. Thank you. Yes, Rhonda. Omega-3s have been shown to activate thermogenesis. So I think that this is the big untold story of the obesity epidemic. We're all trying hard.”
“inside of your gut will use that food. Let's begin with Dairy. Dariush explains why butter, cheese, and cream can all affect LDL cholesterol differently and how the membrane surrounding the droplets of milk fat may help account for some of those differences.”
“it raises LDL cholesterol, then why is it two foods that are both high in saturated fat, butter, cheese, which is a dairy product, they don't raise LDL cholesterol the same way?”
“They lower LDL cholesterol. And so cheese, for example, has a lot of this, whereas butter doesn't. In butter, you throw it away in buttermilk. That's what buttermilk is. You're throwing away this milk-fat globule membrane. So there's all these complexities. There's the multiple effects of saturated fat on factors beyond LDL cholesterol.”
“So homogenization isn't negative, but that's why you homogenize milk. In butter, to be able to make it and pack it into cubes, you have to get rid of this membrane because it'll interfere with sort of the creation of butter. And so butter actually, you lose these really powerful bioactive molecules.”
“with them. But you generally lose that. So, butter is among dairy foods, you know, probably the worst. And even butter is not that bad, which we can get into. But among the dairy foods, butter is probably the worst. And then cheese and cream and yogurt and milk still contain it.”
“the morning, or as butter that they were supposed to eat with jam and scones in the morning. It's a pretty nice trial, right? You get to have, and so the same fat, the same saturated fat, one's butter, one's cream.”
“The cream has the bioactive fatty acids we're talking about. At the end of eight weeks in a double-blind randomized controlled trial, he found that LDL cholesterol in the butter went up. All the predictable things you'd think about, all the estimates we've ever made about saturated fat being harmful often come from butter trials.”
“process foods in ways that can have unpredictable effects. And you said the butter may not be as bad as we thought as well. And why do you say that? Well, so even palmitic acid, which is kind of the signature, you know, worst worst saturated fatty acid, there, for me, the question is compared to what?”
“And so it's pretty much neutral compared to the average bad diet. That's true, but that's what people are eating. And so if somebody increases or decreases their butter intake in an average diet, it's not going to affect their cardiovascular risk very much on average. And that's been seen in many long-term observational studies.”
“unsaturated fats. But honestly, if you're going to have butter instead of white bread, which is just glucose, or butter instead of sugar or sweets or candy or other junk food, it's actually better than those things.”
“fats as much as possible. But a little bit of butter is fine. It's not that big of a deal. And it's honestly better for you than all the starch and sugar and ultra-processed foods. Yeah. And I do want to kind of circle back to that, the polyunsaturated fatty acids as well, because I think the replacement question is an important one.”
“Parkinson's disease, too, right? Talk about that. Yeah. But just to finish the animal foods. And so then you have, I think, eggs and poultry and butter are kind of next down on the list, not quite as good as the others. And then I put unprocessed red meat below that, actually.”
“We've evolved over hundreds of thousands of years, and our ancestors have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years with the food on the planet. Nuts and seeds and fruits and vegetables have evolved to feed us and make us healthier so that we would spread their seeds wide and we would be fertile and we would go out and help them in their evolutionary quest.”
“Then there's the omega-6 fatty acids, polyunsaturated fatty acids, and those come in really a range of nuts and seeds. And so pecans and walnuts and peanuts and a lot of soybean and canola, many, many oils have these omega-6 fatty acids.”
“man, seeds are, if I had to pick one superfood, it would be nuts and seeds. Seed oils are really good for us as well and really healthy. And so omega-3s and omega-6s are really good for us. We need more of them.”
“And that's really clear. And these same omega-6 fats, by the way, are in most nuts, as I mentioned, pecans and walnuts and peanuts and many nuts that we know are really good for us are really rich in these fatty acids.”
“And so, if you had a choice between those two, would the avocado oil be more beneficial? Because when I think about eating whole, you know, nuts and seeds, and by the way, I don't consume, I have avocado oil and olive oil is what I cook with. I have seen the literature.”
“And again, there's heterogeneity. And so if you have a food that's mostly nuts, real true whole nuts, and has some coconut in it, and yes, it has like an artificial color in it, it's better for you than something that's processed all the way down to the studs.”
“Other nutritional compounds have been shown to affect thermogenesis. And guess what? It's all the things that we're talking about. So polyphenols in berries and in nuts have been shown to activate thermogenesis. Curcumin from turmeric has been shown to activate thermogenesis. EGCG in green tea has been shown to activate thermogenesis.”
“And so we don't have any clear kind of one-to-one connection. But broadly, yes, a diet that's rich in nuts and seeds and legumes and true minimally processed whole grains and fruits and vegetables, fermented foods, fish, seafood, all of those things seem to nurture a really healthy microbiome.”
“And so anytime prior guidelines have said, hey, this food is good for you, eat more of it, they've embraced that and said, yes, eat more fruits, eat more vegetables, eat more nuts, whatever. But anytime the scientists who advise them have said, hey, we need to be eating fewer refined grains or less processed foods or less sugar-sweetened beverages or less processed meats, the guidelines have”
“And so as examples, if the guidelines say to eat more strawberries, they just say eat more strawberries. But if they say to eat olive oil or to eat nuts, they say, but be careful. They're energy dense. Don't eat too many nuts. You might gain weight, right? Even though there's no evidence that eating nuts or olive oil causes weight gain.”
“careful with my olive oil because of the calories. If you're eating nuts and seeds and avocados, then I think it probably doesn't make any difference, really, whether you have whole fat or low fat. I think if you're kind of not a big fat eater and you have relatively low amounts of fat intake, then it”
“But even within the animal foods, there's a hierarchy. And so at the top, I would put the fermented dairy, yogurt in particular, and then probably cheese, kefir, other kinds of fermented animal foods seem to have particular benefits.”
“anti-insulin resistance and other positive benefits. So I put kind of yogurt at the top and then maybe cheese and other fermented foods. And I think milk actually has anti-hypertensive peptides linked to lower risk of stroke. So milk is pretty reasonable.”
“But to get to red meat, so I think red meats aren't quite as healthy as let's say cheese or yogurt or other foods, but it's not the fat. And so there's probably very little difference between a fatty cut and a lean cut in terms of the health effects because it's not the saturated fat that's that's having any effects.”
“And more importantly, is the type of dairy. And so yogurt seems to have particular benefits for diabetes. It's a fermented food. It has live probiotics. Cheese also seems to have benefits for diabetes, which is quite interesting. It's also a fermented food.”
“And it doesn't seem to matter whether it's whole fat or low fat. And so what I recommend to people is probably the most important thing is to make sure you're having yogurt and cheese. Don't just think about milk. Try to have dairy without added sugar, without additives.”
“like the flavor, switch to whole fat and you might love it. Like whole fat, plain yogurt. It tastes so good. It's so delicious. My daughter, who's 15, was telling me just the other day. She's like, you know, Dad, I think it's the one food I can think of that goes with every meal and goes with every food. You can have it with fish, you can have it with berries, you can have it with any fruit,”
“vegetable, meat, you know, almost anything. And so I think a plain, a plain, you know, whole fat yogurt is really just a wonderful health food. What if you enjoy whole fat dairy, but you've swapped, when you make your coffee, you've swapped putting like half and half or like a heavy cream or whole milk for a plant milk like almond milk because you're worried about calories and saturated fat.”
“milk. It tastes better. I'm a little bit lactose intolerant. I'm fine with cheese. I'm fine with yogurt. But if I have like a half cup of milk, I'm going to kind of notice it. So I use oat milk. You know, that's fine. When I have cereal, I use oat milk. But if I have my cappuccino, I want regular milk in my cappuccino.”
“forward slash N-E-W-S-L-E-T-T-E-R newsletter. Also, Darius's new book, Food is Medicine, is out now. In it, he brings together decades of nutrition research to examine how food can help prevent and treat disease and what it would take to make nutrition a central part of healthcare.”
“We'll include the link in the show notes, but again, you can even search it. It's food is medicine. Thank you so much. And now please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Dariush Muzaffarian. Hello, everyone. My guest today is Dr. Dariush Muzaffarian. He is a cardiologist.”
“what is causing obesity. So I have a book coming out in the fall, Food is Medicine, in October from Macmillan. And so I hope people who are interested in these topics can look at that book. I have a whole chapter on obesity because it's one of those conditions that really strikes me for the lack of deep thinking about its causes.”
“and to the agencies and really trying to convince them to shift their policies and work on this. And also what the book talks about. And basically, you know, in brief, we have to follow the money. We have to look where we're already making investments and use that money. There's not new money to be had.”
“I love that idea. So, your book, Food is Medicine. I want to ask you about this, Food is Medicine, actually, before we get to your book, because what does that actually mean, right? Obviously, food is not antibiotics. So, what does food is medicine mean, and how do you differentiate that from actual medicine?”
“And why are we talking about food in that way? And wow, food is really critical to my health. I love that. So, your book comes out in October 2026. Food is Medicine. There's more to the title. Food is Medicine is the main part, but it has other. Yeah, yeah, it comes out in October.”
“new book, Food is Medicine. He also takes on a question that matters long before you reach the checkout line. What would it take to make nutritious foods affordable and easy to find where you live?”
“triple, by 15-fold. He had increased the yield that you could get out of an acre of land. And so within, once, you know, in the late 1960s, once this people learned about this and he started taking these seeds and these varieties and these techniques around the world, within five years, India and Pakistan went from nations on the brink of famine to food exporting nations.”
“on the planet. Nuts and seeds and fruits and vegetables have evolved to feed us and make us healthier so that we would spread their seeds wide and we would be fertile and we would go out and help them in their evolutionary quest.”
“Then there's the omega-6 fatty acids, polyunsaturated fatty acids, and those come in really a range of nuts and seeds. And so pecans and walnuts and peanuts and a lot of soybean and canola, many, many oils have these omega-6 fatty acids.”
“And so this idea that seed oils are bad for you when seeds are one of nature's most amazing potent gifts to man, seeds are, if I had to pick one superfood, it would be nuts and seeds. Seed oils are really good for us as well and really healthy.”
“And so, if you had a choice between those two, would the avocado oil be more beneficial? Because when I think about eating whole, you know, nuts and seeds, and by the way, I don't consume, I have avocado oil and olive oil is what I cook with. I have seen the literature.”
“And so we don't have any clear kind of one-to-one connection. But broadly, yes, a diet that's rich in nuts and seeds and legumes and true minimally processed whole grains and fruits and vegetables, fermented foods, fish, seafood, all of those things seem to nurture a really healthy microbiome.”
“careful with my olive oil because of the calories. If you're eating nuts and seeds and avocados, then I think it probably doesn't make any difference, really, whether you have whole fat or low fat. I think if you're kind of not a big fat eater and you have relatively low amounts of fat intake, then it”
“And to really switch to talking about foods, which foods are good or bad for you. And there, for example, which we can talk about, I'm sure, the dietary guidelines have finally said that whole fat dairy with no added sugar is fine. And that's completely evidence-based. There's really no difference between whole fat dairy and low-fat dairy when it comes to risk of almost any outcome.”
“Any fat milk? Oh, they all have the peptides? All have these effects, yeah. And we can talk about dairy fat, but the short answer is there's really no evidence that whole fat dairy is worse for you than low-fat. And there's some evidence that the opposite is true. Parkinson's disease, too, right? Talk about that. Yeah.”
“foods. And then lastly, I should have mentioned, but I think is really, really important is as part of the embracing healthy fats, the guidelines actually finally say after years and years of the science being obvious that whole fat dairy is fine. And you talked about, you know, many, many people who've grown up with the low-fat guidelines.”
“should be having whole fat dairy because when they have low-fat dairy, they actually gain more body fat than when they have low-fat dairy. And so all the guidelines, even past guidelines, have said through age two, you should have whole fat dairy.”
“Thank you. Because the science doesn't support that there's a switch at age two and all of a sudden now you need low-fat dairy. And so if you look at adults who have whole fat dairy versus low-fat dairy, they don't have higher risk of heart disease. They don't have worse blood cholesterol levels. They don't have higher diabetes.”
“I think that's probably the most important thing. You know, I think if somebody's going to be having more saturated fat from whole fat dairy and red meats and other things, I would be sure you're also having plenty of unsaturated fats from plant sources and seafood sources.”
“better than eating refined breakfast cereal or junk food. And so I want to merely be clear about that point. It's not like we can't make some processed foods that are healthier if we can figure some of this stuff out.”
“And so the example I use there is Cheerios, right? Cheerios is not a bad cereal. Parents are giving your kids Cheerios. Don't worry about it. It's probably OK. It's not a worse cereal. But compared to steel-cut oats, Cheerios is molecularly disassembled and highly processed.”
“And if you go look in your pantry or next time you go to the grocery store and you're comparing products, you're comparing energy bars or cereals or other things like that, I think it can be helpful. That's great. The grass loophole is also a problem. It sounds like it's a really big problem, actually. And I hope”
“But if I have like a half cup of milk, I'm going to kind of notice it. So I use oat milk. That's fine. When I have cereal, I use oat milk. But if I have my cappuccino, I want regular milk and my cappuccino just doesn't taste the same. So I think they're all reasonable if they're unsweetened. How do you feel about someone that, I mean, you talked a little bit about genetics with the FTO gene.”
“So there it's really compared to what? And so what do I mean by that? If you're going to use butter in place of extra virgin olive oil or soybean oil or canola oil or other oils with healthy unsaturated fats, it's a worse choice. You're going to worsen your health than having sort of, you know, seed, nut, fruit oils that are rich in phenolics and unsaturated fats.”
“I think they're amazing, terrific, healthy foods, but it's probably not just the fats. And so extra virgin olive oil, as you know, has lots of anti-inflammatory compounds. One of the really interesting ones is oleocanthal. Oleocanthal binds Cox receptors, which is the same receptors that aspirin binds and has natural anti-inflammatory effects at low levels, low levels.”
“And so the reason you get that burn in your throat when you have extra virgin olive oil is that the oleocanthal is binding the exact same receptors that aspirin would bind. If you've ever ground up an aspirin and it burns your throat, it's the same receptor.”
“that's bad. We also generally cook and use extra virgin olive oil for everything because of the taste. I just really like the taste a lot. But if we're going to actually fry and like do some deep frying, we use canola oil because it burns, olive oil will burn, and canola oil is actually more stable than extra virgin olive oil.”
“fermented foods, fish, seafood, all of those things seem to nurture a really healthy microbiome. When it comes to rapid weight loss, as the case now with a lot of these GLP1s, I call them GLP1s because now we have like tiers of them, not just receptor agonists. We got like multiple versions of them now.”
“Yeah, I think GLP1s are really interesting because they're pointing to so many interesting things about obesity. So first, this is by far the most powerful anti-obesity drug ever invented and it was discovered by accident.”
“And they're, in fact, they're FDA approved as an adjunct to nutritional lifestyle. The actual FDA language says GLP-1s are approved for obesity treatment as an adjunct to nutritional lifestyle. So you're supposed to have foundational nutritional lifestyle and then add this drug to that.”
“quickly and you don't gain it back. You gain back fat. And so I think for the vast majority of people on GLP-1s, if they don't think about food and lifestyle, I think they're going to... It's an economic disaster for our country because of the cost.”
“no added sugar is fine. And that's completely evidence-based. There's really no difference between whole fat dairy and low-fat dairy when it comes to risk of almost any outcome. So I think it's complicated like most things in nutrition, but the science has really made clear that focusing on one outcome,”
“should be having whole fat dairy because when they have low-fat dairy, they actually gain more body fat than when they have low-fat dairy. And so all the guidelines, even past guidelines, have said through age two, you should have whole fat dairy.”
“Thank you. Because the science doesn't support that there's a switch at age two and all of a sudden now you need low-fat dairy. And so if you look at adults who have whole fat dairy versus low-fat dairy, they don't have higher risk of heart disease. They don't have worse blood cholesterol levels. They don't have higher diabetes.”
“probably makes more sense to switch to low-fat dairy because you don't want the bulk of your fat to be saturated fat. That's an interesting point to think about if you're already eating a really low-fat diet.”
“So there it's really compared to what? And so what do I mean by that? If you're going to use butter in place of extra virgin olive oil or soybean oil or canola oil or other oils with healthy unsaturated fats, it's a worse choice. You're going to worsen your health than having sort of, you know, seed, nut, fruit oils that are rich in phenolics and unsaturated fats.”
“Then there's the omega-6 fatty acids, polyunsaturated fatty acids, and those come in really a range of nuts and seeds. And so pecans and walnuts and peanuts and a lot of soybean and canola, many, many oils have these omega-6 fatty acids. Like omega-3s, they're essential.”
“beef tallow or soybean oil or canola oil, if they're burning that oil and overusing it, you get all kinds of heat shock proteins and other lipid oxidation products that are bad for you.”
“Like, pick whichever one you like, and just I'm okay with that. All of those options are fine. But if you like to cook with canola oil or soybean oil for taste or for cost or for other things, it's perfectly fine. It's a perfectly fine choice. But the high oleg may not be as good because they're taking away some of the beneficial.”
“But there's ones with longer chains that seem to be protective. There's ones with shorter chains that seem to be protective. And one example of that is what people call MCTs, medium-chain triglycerides. Those are 8, 10, 12 carbon saturated fats or MCTs, and those seem to be metabolically protective.”
“fat on cholesterol. But you also mentioned shorter carbons like C12, MCTs. Coconut oil would be a prime example that it's in coconut oil.”
“And so their net effects would be even potentially protective. And there have been randomized trials of MCTs, not huge trials, not well, super well-done trials, but there have been several trials showing benefits of giving MCT oils. And then in terms of the milk, fat, globule, membrane, so this is naturally present so that the fat and water don't mix, right?”
“I just want to right out the gate tell you guys, I learned so much from this conversation. It really changed some of the foods that I keep in my refrigerator, including whole milk. Honestly, this really was the best nutrition podcast I've ever recorded or even listened to for that matter.”
“So milk is pretty reasonable. Full-fat milk? Any fat. Any fat milk? Oh, they all have the peptides? All have these effects, yeah. And we can talk about dairy fat, but the short answer is there's really no evidence that whole fat dairy is worse for you than low-fat.”
“or like a heavy cream or whole milk for a plant milk like almond milk because you're worried about calories and saturated fat. Do you think in that form it's also more beneficial to switch to the whole fat I'm asking for myself?”
“It's actually something else. And it's not really the monounsaturated fat in the animal foods. So that gets to, you know, what do we do about olive oil and avocados? I think they're amazing, terrific, healthy foods, but it's probably not just the fats. And so extra virgin olive oil, as you know, has lots of anti-inflammatory compounds.”
“So, I tell people: if you're going to have a potato chip, it's not a health food, but if you're going to have one, find the highest fat one you can, dip it in olive oil, you know, have it with avocados, have it with more, more, more healthy fats. And so, I think there is a danger of demonizing”
“and how they're very prone to oxidation. And so, in their minds, if you take the same amount of, for example, avocado oil and the same amount of canola oil and you heat them, that you're going to be consuming more oxidized lipids or fatty acids in the canola oil versus the avocado oil.”
“will burn, and canola oil is actually more stable than extra virgin olive oil. I'm actually not sure about avocado oil. I'm guessing that's actually similarly stable to canola oil. But I think this stability issue has actually been a negative thing because, for example, safflower oil is actually a fairly healthy oil.”
“I use the example of a baked potato chip. So, a baked potato chip, unless you're getting one with all kinds of junk in it, a clean baked potato chip has three ingredients: it has potatoes, some oil, avocado oil, soybean oil, canola oil, usually, and salt.”
“And so, the last thing you should be eating if you're going to eat a potato chip, the last thing you should be eating is a baked potato chip where you've taken out the healthy oil and you're leaving more relative starch and salt. So, I tell people: if you're going to have a potato chip, it's not a health food, but if you're going to have one, find the highest fat one you can, dip it in olive oil,”
“micronutrient, you know, dense bar, which had polyphenols. It had things like cocoflavanols and a variety of vitamins and minerals that people weren't getting enough of in their diet. And then it also had like this food matrix, a variety of different fibers.”
“And so it's really easy to kind of do an RCT versus nutrition. And so I think what I'm getting at is, you know, you'll find studies where like, oh, we give them cocoflavanols, and sometimes you'll find a beneficial effect, sometimes not. But like, maybe it's the whole package. Maybe the cocoflavanols in with, you know, the plant and the whole thing is doing something, right?”
“fat through cold exposure, deliberate cold exposure? I mean, I have a cold plunge at my house. I only use it in the summer embarrassingly because I do know about the science behind it, but I just, it's a lot easier for me to get in the hot tub and sauna than the cold.”
“That's as natural as possible. And as you said, we don't know for sure that these would work together. But if somebody wants to try combining cold plunges or, you know, other cold vests and has the means to do it with a healthy diet, I think that could be really interesting. And I'd love to see actually some research on that.”
“And so we're just discovering, you mentioned some of them polyphenols, you know, things like EGCG and green tea or cocoflavanols in dark chocolate or polyphenols in blueberries or pomegranate or Sulforaphane and all these other molecules.”
“Curcumin from turmeric has been shown to activate thermogenesis. EGCG in green tea has been shown to activate thermogenesis. So all of the same things. Omega-3s. Omega-3s. Thank you. Yes, Rhonda. Omega-3s have been shown to activate thermogenesis. So I think that this is the big untold story of the obesity epidemic.”
“Parkinson's disease, too, right? Talk about that. Yeah. But just to finish the animal foods. And so then you have, I think, eggs and poultry and butter are kind of next down on the list, not quite as good as the others. And then I put unprocessed red meat below that, actually.”
“The guidelines say eat real food. Get your protein from a range of sources, from a range of plant sources, animal sources, soy, lentils, legumes, meat, dairy, eggs. They kind of, you know, cover all of that. But what industry is doing is taking that message and putting protein in Pop-Tarts, putting protein in Starbucks and Dunkin' sugary drinks,”
“that. But all of them have evidence for benefit. And it's not perfect evidence, but this is a place where there's been large long-term trials with thousands of people who have been given just fish oil. Some of them have shown significant benefits for heart attacks and other outcomes. Some of them have not.”
“change, turn genes on and off. And so, for example, fish oil lowering triglycerides happens through a genetic effect in the liver, the fatty acids going into liver and affecting the genes that produce triglycerides. And then lastly, and just as importantly as all the other ones, fatty acids are the precursors to a world of incredible”
“Any fat milk? Oh, they all have the peptides? All have these effects, yeah. And we can talk about dairy fat, but the short answer is there's really no evidence that whole fat dairy is worse for you than low-fat. And there's some evidence that the opposite is true. Parkinson's disease, too, right? Talk about that. Yeah.”
“Our kids, when they turn two, our pediatricians in Boston, at Boston's top hospitals, would say, okay, so now you're switching to low-fat milk, right? And we'd say, no, we're going to stick with whole fat. And they're like, oh, well, you're supposed to switch, right? And I'm like, no, we're going to stick with whole fat. Thank you.”
Also filed under Milk
“unsaturated fats. But honestly, if you're going to have butter instead of white bread, which is just glucose, or butter instead of sugar or sweets or candy or other junk food, it's actually better than those things.”
“So the Cheerios fully digested. The starch and sugar is fully digested in the stomach and small intestine. And so it has a pretty high glycemic index. So even though it's a whole grain, compared to steel-cut oats, it has a pretty high glycemic index, not that different than white bread, although lower, but not that different.”
“beef tallow or soybean oil or canola oil, if they're burning that oil and overusing it, you get all kinds of heat shock proteins and other lipid oxidation products that are bad for you.”
“Other nutritional compounds have been shown to affect thermogenesis. And guess what? It's all the things that we're talking about. So polyphenols in berries and in nuts have been shown to activate thermogenesis. Curcumin from turmeric has been shown to activate thermogenesis. EGCG in green tea has been shown to activate thermogenesis.”
“Right. If it's bread, does it have seeds on the outside? Right. If it's a bar, do you see nuts and do you see strips of coconut as a sweetener? Do you see dates? You know, do you actually recognize the food? I think that's one kind of general rule.”
“They lower LDL cholesterol. And so cheese, for example, has a lot of this, whereas butter doesn't. In butter, you throw it away in buttermilk. That's what buttermilk is. You're throwing away this milk-fat globule membrane. So there's all these complexities. There's the multiple effects of saturated fat on factors beyond LDL cholesterol.”
“So I use oat milk. You know, that's fine. When I have cereal, I use oat milk. But if I have my cappuccino, I want regular milk in my cappuccino. It just doesn't taste the same. So I think they're all reasonable if they're unsweetened. How do you feel about someone that, I mean, you talked a little bit about genetics with the FTO gene.”
“So first, you get the rush of nutrients into the bloodstream. And so the example I use there is Cheerios, right? Cheerios is not a bad cereal. Parents are giving your kids Cheerios. Don't worry about it. Like it's probably okay. It's not a worse cereal. But compared to steel-cut oats, Cheerios is molecularly disassembled and highly processed.”
“But you also mentioned shorter carbons like C12, MCTs. Coconut oil would be a prime example that it's in coconut oil. Is that raising saturated, I mean, is that raising LDL cholesterol?”
“That's as natural as possible. And as you said, we don't know for sure that these would work together. But if somebody wants to try combining cold plunges or, you know, other cold vests and has the means to do it with a healthy diet, I think that could be really interesting. And I'd love to see actually some research on that.”
“burden there if you're not like char broiling it and like really kind of getting that like burnt stuff? And then, also, like, I've seen some studies looking at, for example, cruciferous intake along with some of these, you know, red meat carcinogenic compounds, like the heterocyclic amines that can be formed when you cook it, particularly at a high heat.”
“So polyphenols in berries and in nuts have been shown to activate thermogenesis. Curcumin from turmeric has been shown to activate thermogenesis. EGCG in green tea has been shown to activate thermogenesis. So all of the same things. Omega-3s. Omega-3s. Thank you. Yes, Rhonda. Omega-3s have been shown to activate thermogenesis.”
“And in infants, if you give DHA during pregnancy or during breastfeeding, infants have better visual acuity. They can see better. That's been well demonstrated. If you put trans fat in the membrane, the rhodopsin cycling slows down dramatically and can't happen as dramatically.”
“And so big things came out of that conference. One was the standardization of enriching wheat flour with B vitamins and iron. And so now if you go on a package and it says enriched flour and then in parentheses, it has all these lists of vitamins. That came out of the 1941 conference.”
“anti-insulin resistance and other positive benefits. So I put kind of yogurt at the top and then maybe cheese and other fermented foods. And I think milk actually has anti-hypertensive peptides linked to lower risk of stroke. So milk is pretty reasonable.”
“And so we don't have any clear kind of one-to-one connection. But broadly, yes, a diet that's rich in nuts and seeds and legumes and true minimally processed whole grains and fruits and vegetables, fermented foods, fish, seafood, all of those things seem to nurture a really healthy microbiome.”
“Curcumin from turmeric has been shown to activate thermogenesis. EGCG in green tea has been shown to activate thermogenesis. So all of the same things. Omega-3s. Omega-3s. Thank you. Yes, Rhonda. Omega-3s have been shown to activate thermogenesis. So I think that this is the big untold story of the obesity epidemic.”
“I mean, I have a cold plunge at my house. I only use it in the summer embarrassingly because I do know about the science behind it, but I just, it's a lot easier for me to get in the hot tub and sauna than the cold. But, you know, would a combination of perhaps, or I'm asking you to speculate, do you think a combination of like, hey,”
“But even within the animal foods, there's a hierarchy. And so at the top, I would put the fermented dairy, yogurt in particular, and then probably cheese, kefir, other kinds of fermented animal foods seem to have particular benefits.”
“And when I say unprocessed and red meat, it's good to define those. And so red meat is beef, pork, or lamb. And unprocessed means fresher frozen meat that spoils, right? It doesn't have preservatives added to it. If you leave it on the table for a few hours, it'll spoil.”
“They took their exact same brain addiction scientists. They took their exact same marketing teams that market to kids and create brand loyalty. They took their same flavor scientists, all of their scientists that have worked so hard to make tobacco as appealing and as addictive as possible and market it to kids and get it into people's minds and have you see a brand and the Marlboro Man”
“the food matrix. So instead of taking a multivitamin, you would eat this bar and it would have a little bit of a better effect in theory. And so there was a bunch of small trials that were done. And there were beneficial effects on lowering inflammation, increasing HDL, lowering small dense LDL.”
“I'm thinking about my parents when you saying, you know, low-fat, non-fat milk, non-fat yogurt isn't necessarily better than eating full fat. And to them, I mean, it's in their brains. I mean, like, it's like they can't go to the store and not buy non-fat. You know, it's like it's really ingrained that fat yogurt is bad for them.”
“I'm fine with cheese. I'm fine with yogurt. But if I have like a half cup of milk, I'm going to kind of notice it. So I use oat milk. You know, that's fine. When I have cereal, I use oat milk. But if I have my cappuccino, I want regular milk in my cappuccino. It just doesn't taste the same. So I think they're all reasonable if they're unsweetened.”
“And then the other thing we actually don't know is, well, what if you raise the meat regeneratively and it's pasture, pasture-raised, pasture-finished with healthy foods versus finished in an industrial feedlot with grain and corn. Does that make a big difference? So far, the nutrients that we've measured, it makes a little bit of a difference”
“But if you're having unsweetened versions, I think they're probably all fine. And so, you know, I think it just depends on taste. And so when I make my morning breakfast smoothies, one frozen banana, one unfrozen banana, scoop of peanut butter, I use oat milk. It tastes better. I'm a little bit lactose intolerant.”
“And one of the examples I think about is fat-free salad dressing, right? Salad dressing, by definition, should have oil in it. Oil is the base of salad dressing. So what is fat-free salad dressing? When I first thought about this about 20 years ago, I had to go to the grocery store and like look at a bottle to say, you know, this was before it was like everything was on the internet and actually”
“I mean, I have a cold plunge at my house. I only use it in the summer embarrassingly because I do know about the science behind it, but I just, it's a lot easier for me to get in the hot tub and sauna than the cold. But, you know, would a combination of perhaps, or I'm asking you to speculate, do you think a combination of like, hey,”
“Or sulforaphane and all these other molecules. Those are the ones we know about. So I think you're absolutely right about the nutrition. And we can't recreate that yet with technology.”
“So polyphenols in berries and in nuts have been shown to activate thermogenesis. Curcumin from turmeric has been shown to activate thermogenesis. EGCG in green tea has been shown to activate thermogenesis. So all of the same things. Omega-3s. Omega-3s. Thank you. Yes, Rhonda. Omega-3s have been shown to activate thermogenesis.”
“He gave them about 10% of their calories as unsweetened cream that they were supposed to eat with jam and scones in the morning, or as butter that they were supposed to eat with jam and scones in the morning.”
“kefir, you know, other kinds of fermented animal foods seem to have particular benefits. And there's interesting molecules that when they're fermented, the bacteria create like menaquinones, which is vitamin K2, which has anti-insulin resistance and other positive benefits.”
“And so he'd throw these parties, but people didn't believe him. And he finally discovered that wheat germ, which we now know is rich in B vitamins, like niacin, wheat germ would cure this in many patients. So he probably helped thousands of patients, but he died in 1936, the year before niacin was discovered and he was vindicated.”
“trials. On the cream, whipped cream, no change in LDL cholesterol. It didn't change at all. And so, it really shows that a lot of our recommendation about saturated fat have been really dramatically oversimplified.”
“The germ comes from somewhere else and it's packaged together and mixed together. And bread comes out or whole wheat cereal comes out, but it's molecularly disassembled. It's rapidly digested in the stomach and in the small intestine.”
As referenced on air, with the quote and the moment. Reported, not evaluated.
“There's a wonderful randomized trial done in Europe by a colleague of mine, Ulf Rizarus, who had sort of seen this early science about milk, fat, globule, membrane, and infants, and breast milk, and breastfeeding, and why it was beneficial.”
“There's a wonderful randomized trial done in Europe by a colleague of mine, Ulf Rizarus, who had sort of seen this early science about milk, fat, globule, membrane, and infants, and breast milk, and breastfeeding, and why it was beneficial.”